Hello, I heard that the herb Sage has a very high amount of Thujone. Is it possible to mix Sage and Absinthe together to increase the Thujone level of the drink?
Qwazar | (removed)@aol.com
Jul 9, 10:05 PM
A week ago, a poster posed the above question on a Lucid thread and it got me thinking. To start with, the question sounded like the classic line from one of those thujone is irrelevant campaigners – the guys whose line echoes the mantra of the new era of media-crazed absinthe entrepreneurs (aka. historians, chemists, etc). The script these posters use online tries to suggest that if you can’t get high from a Thanksgiving Dinner with sage stuffing, how come you can from absinthe?
Cute, huh?
This is, of course, a real turkey as it fails to acknowledge the purity of the terpene in alcohol (i), but it’s a simple argument and it delivers their message. A message that has helped absinthe – or as some say a thujone-lite faux absinthe – onto US soil.
Then I thought again. Maybe this was a real question. A quick scout round the web reveals that infusing real Artemisia Absinthium (Grande Wormwood) in Absente – the original thujone-free, USA legal absinthe – was common years before Lucid was even dreamed up! Folks have long been using original absinthe herbs as a kind of thujone booster!
I also see that many people are also using absinthe herbal preparations to make thujone rich-absinthe drink in the comfort of their own homes out of high proof alcohol – see, for example, sites like Absolutely Absinthe
… or Green Devil:
I wonder what it tastes like? Anyone got any experience? Perhaps adding one of these preparations to Lucid Absinthe will just make the drink more delightfully bitter? After all, we know that Lucid’s manufacturer (coincidentally the leading anti-thujone “researcher”) has not only dumbed down the thujone, but also the traditional anise to suit US standards.
Can’t help but wonder. Also, don’t forget the next time you meet an online persona who talks about sage, turkey dinners and thujone, ask yourself this: is this some guy reading from a prepared script, or just a guy who simply wants thujone in his absinthe…. Not an unreasonable request… but one that I’m afraid the USA won’t agree to.
(i) Kurt Hostettmann est professeur à l’école de pharmacie de Genève-Lausanne. Pour lui, l’absinthe est avant tout une plante médicinale excellente pour la digestion. C’est seulement lorsqu’elle est mélangée à de l’alcool qu’elle laisse vraiment échapper cette fameuse thuyone.
51 responses so far ↓
Scotty Bones // July 20, 2007 at 1:42 am |
Why not just go straight for the sage and buy a bottle from this Spanish supplier?
http://www.absentaculture.com//product_info.php?cPath=46&products_id=94
It’s called Salvia in Spanish as in Salvia officinalis, not to be confused with Salvia divinorum.
Ari // July 20, 2007 at 1:58 pm |
I agree, It’s all a conspiracy, Ted is obviously the head of this, publishing many papers about the evils of thujone. Accurate papers show 1000mgs of thujone in every glass of vintage absinthe. People are just so stupid to buy his product, everyone knows 19th century absinthe was just wormwood soaked in alcohol. Thujone is all that matters, which is why I buy high thujone absinth instead of the many much cheaper and easier to get herbs and extracts that have been sold in the US for many years now that don’t fall under the regulations that ban absinthe.
absintheur // July 20, 2007 at 3:34 pm |
I think you are the guy to answer that question.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pio%C5%82un%C3%B3wka
? has some stuff on raised thujone levels
Scotty Bones // July 20, 2007 at 6:53 pm |
I think it would, depending upon the quality of the wormwood. As with all herbal products, quality and maintenance of bioactive compounds begins with properly harvested, processed and stored herbs. In the interest of fairness, and not wanting to appear to be a culturally malignant American slob, I will make a batch of the Polish drink on the above wiki reference. I have high quality certified organic wormwood, 190 proof ethanol and granulated sugar. Opinions as to the effects or imagined effects of wormwood notwithstanding, I do have a certain sensitivity to Artemisia absinthium. I have worked with 100’s of herbs at my friend’s company (http://www.amazonmedicine.com) so my background is a bit deeper than that of an absinthe Sunday driver. I will endeavor to make and quaff a batch of piolunowka and report back. But hey, aren’t there any Poles tuned in to this blog who can compare absinthe to piolunowka concerning perceived thujone effects?
P.S. The thujone debate doesn’t really interest me that much (insert porkchop here?) but if the Poles make a sugary wormwood infusion, that’s a legitimate enough reference for me to try a batch. But as I said before, there are much better ways to alter reality than wormwood.
absintheur // July 20, 2007 at 8:38 pm |
Cool
that’s a great idea!
These brews exist throughout the region:
http://czechabsinthe.wordpress.com/2007/05/26/slovenia-2002/
Here’s one for you Scotty that I noticed while researching that silver alembic that Fuchs carried around with him:
Scotty Bones // July 20, 2007 at 10:30 pm |
Very interesting citation. I’ve just been inspired to pull out my copy of Eve’s Herbs, A History of Contraception and Abortion in the West, John M. Riddle, 1997, Harvard University Press, ISBN 0-674-27026-6, in which the gradual and total supression of female self-care is well documented over two millenia. There are a handful of citations concerning wormwood that I will post later.
Presently I have a few questions about the piolunowka recipe:
for 500 ml of water get 168g of sugar boil and add 7.91g of young wormwood (mainly flowertops). When cooled, add to it 500ml of Polish rectified spirit (98% vol or 196 proof) and filter it. If you wish, you can add som water to the alcoholate and the distill it up to 50% (the traditional Piołunówka strength).
Is the young wormwood to be added fresh or dried?
I assume that the author of the wiki recipe means dilute to 50% and not distill.
Also the quantities of 168 g and 7.91 g strike me as odd, as if the recipe were translated from some other unit of measure.
Finally, the procedure I will follow is this: Bring 500 ml water to boil, then add 168 g sugar. When this has dissolved, I will add the wormwood tops fresh unless I hear otherwise. I will then remove it from heat without further boiling. When cooled I will filter it through pharmaceutical grade cheesecloth. I will take half to experiment with immediately and take half to add French oak chips to (purchased from a wine supply store.)
A link from the wiki page that you posted sent me here:
mellow the spirits and instigate a unique and probably delicious flavor profile. Also it says nalewka drinks are usually served after meals in chilled 50 ml glasses. It sounds more like a digestive tonic than cocktails.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nalewka
It says that this class of drinks are often aged in barrels. This is a major, major difference from merely soaking herbs in vodka and chugging in order to get f’ed up. The interaction between the spirits and the wood would
absintheur // July 21, 2007 at 9:08 am |
>aged in barrels
http://czechabsinthe.files.wordpress.com/2007/06/pelinkovac.jpg
Becherovka is served chilled too.
How long will you leave the oak chips version?
Scotty Bones // July 21, 2007 at 5:43 pm |
The wiki reference says some drinks are aged up to 3 years. So I will probably put the chips in and start tasting at 3 months, just to get an idea of the development of flavors and color. And try to keep it around for at least a year or two . I will only taste a few ml per tasting so it won’t disappear fast.
absintheur // July 21, 2007 at 8:10 pm |
“Common Wormwood I shall not describe, for every boy that can eat an egg knows it”
http://www.bibliomania.com/2/1/66/113/21290/1/frameset.html
absintheur // July 21, 2007 at 8:23 pm |
Scotty, doesn’t this answer your earlier question about the Franco-Suisse origin being questionable?
This has obviously been in the public arena for some time – so maybe I’m missing something:
Culpeper’s ‘The Complete Herbal’, 1653:
‘Spiritus et Aqua Absynthii”
absintheur // July 21, 2007 at 9:18 pm |
Scotty Bones // July 21, 2007 at 11:54 pm |
Absintheur, while I do not wish to denigrate any French or Swiss absinthes, it does appear that the development of said spirit can be uniquely claimed by neither country. The generally accepted history is that commercial (or maybe industrial is a better term?) production began in the Franco-Swiss region. I wonder if we can find references to commercial/industrial absinthe production anywhere else?
absintheur // July 22, 2007 at 11:48 am |
>I do not wish to denigrate any French or Swiss
absinthes
I totally agree. That’s not the issue here – much of the history is shady, and it’s interesting to try to get at the truth.
Dr Ordinaire is allegedly a ficticious charachter – rather curious, isn’t it?
http://www.feeverte.net/pernod/page1.html is the only evidence I know of, and Hiram has called him the absinthe equivalent of Father Christmas
Makes you wonder why he was created.
absintheur // July 22, 2007 at 11:59 am |
“one given by Nott [Recipes (Nott)] show that it was a compound water distilled from a WINE in which WORMWOOD had been steeped along with flavours such as ANISEED and LIQUORICE designed to make the product more palatable”
The more one reads about these English “compound waters” -the more it sounds like this is where the Henroid sisters picked up the idea.
There’s a list of them on this new resource
My favourite: AQUA HYSTERICA
Update:
More wormwood erudition at Scotty’s blog: http://www.absinthealchemist.com/blog/?p=15 (Early American Wormwood Drink Recipes)
absintheur // August 1, 2007 at 1:12 am |
Update:
Please note – Lucid fanatics – that there is some concern as well over at the Fee Verte forum:
The truth? Don’t hold your breath Dr Ordinaire!
Leif Rogers // August 3, 2007 at 10:44 pm |
This is slightly off topic but with the mention of a toned down anise in Lucid, I started writing.
I haven’t tried Lucid yet (at 60 dollars a bottle, plus getting it shipped to where I live, I’d rather stick to what I know, however, I plan on getting some at some point for the sake of proper investigation) but have heard plenty about it (as we all have) and most of it is contradictory. As such, until I have bottle in hand, I’m going to avoid making a judgement as to its quality.
However, what strikes me is this (and this seems to get overlooked quite a bit):
From everything I read it seems like Lucid is toned down in anise flavour. Something that I normally let pass, however, a lot of Czech Absinths are knocked on that very basis.
And what they use to justify their lack of anise is that it isn’t a popular taste in America (it isn’t,, but still…if they were trying to be “purists” instead of “marketers” you’d think it’d have kept a strong anise flavour). Which also seems to me (having not been there, but again from what I read) the reason why Czech Absinth has a lesser anise flavour. The oddity here is that Czech Absinth is hated while Lucid is getting greeted with open arms.
I haven’t been on the scene for long and there’s still a lot to learn (of course, there will always be a lot to learn), however, the manic hatred of all things Czech is just amazing and leads me to place a lot of the “authorities”‘ judgements on the matter as suspect.
However, with what I’ve been reading/researching , with this blog here (and a nice one it is), with Scotty Bones’ blog, and all the others…I think things will open up in terms of the history of absinthe, its development, and the ideas of what is absinthe–and that is exciting.
And now for a real aside:
I like a lot of this to the development of language. Being from the US we have an amazing amount of diversity within the English language–with new words coming into the language constantly. At the end of the day, I still speak English, even though the form I speak is far (way far) from the form that was spoken not even 100 years ago (not to mention, UK English, Queen’s English, and the multitudes of dialects spoken around the world each with their own unique traits). Yes, there are purists out there, however, even their purist view is just another form of English and not THE English.
I apply that analogy to a lot of things in life. Absinthe being one of them and as anyone can see it is VERY regional. Instead of people writing page after useless page on why something isn’t absinthe because it’s not like exactly like Pernod (or some such argument) why can’t Regional guides get written instead? Why is it that we can’t just enjoy the diversity of absinthe?
I’m probably speaking to the choir here, and as such we don’t need to defend our tastes, however, it’s one of those things that has been on my mind and needed some venting.
Keep on digging!
Leif
Ari // August 4, 2007 at 4:13 pm |
“Lucid is toned down in anise flavour. Something that I normally let pass, however, a lot of Czech Absinths are knocked on that very basis.”
Toned down is different than non existent. For example, Lucid still louches because of its anise content and it still tastes like an anise flavored beverage.
“I haven’t been on the scene for long … the manic hatred of all things Czech”
Something tells me you should read more and buy into false conspiracies less.
Although I find it interesting that complaining about poor quality products is changed into a hatred of all things Czech.
absintheur, does the fact that not only Dr.O can’t support his statements but has shown to be incorrect change your quoting of him as some sort of interesting evidence? Did you bother to research his statements?
absintheur // August 4, 2007 at 6:00 pm |
Czech absinth? Did you ever try Bairnsfather Reality, Absinthium 1792, Toulouse Lautrec? You are talking about wormood high L’Or products I think, and not Czech absinth. The reason you dislike Pavel Varga et al is their marketing success – L’Or doesn’t = Czech Absinth
Kyle even produces an anise bomb absinth called Absinth Bitter…last time I looked he was producing from the old Sebor Distillery here in the Czech Republic.
By creating a national, as opposed to distiller specific, whipping boy your masters are hoping everyone is going to ignore the obvious problems with their own faux creations. Take a look at this dumb piece of spin:
You can see my response on CAD Watch. I am still waiting for Jennifer to reply.
Excuse me? What about Mr Breaux:
We’ll take Ted Breaux and Ian Hutton’s word for it then, shall we? Hang on..aren’t both of them involved in the production and sale of absinthe? Isn’t thujone the one big sticking problem for US sales. How very convenient, Ari.
Ari // August 4, 2007 at 6:28 pm |
I never said I was talking about all absinth that comes out of the czech republic (and you should know that). Generally products that louche and contain anise are refered to as “absinthe” (with the e) or without the ‘bohemian style’ tag.
Nope, but it is a czech product that calls itself absinth.
Well when the “czech is bad” moniker was created there weren’t any good or real brands coming from there, if you payed attention you might notice people’s claims about *all* czech absinthe have changed.
What’s convenient is that Dr.O seems to focus only on Ted when in fact most of the papers on thujone are peer reviewed and written by people other than Ted and Ian (Is Ian even still part of Jade?) and are viewable online for anyone willing to actually search. Dr.O has not only been told this but admitted to it in at least one post, only to forget his own words and go back to his old addiction.
The sad thing is that you should know this too yet for some reason would rather post conspiracies and unchecked information.
absintheur // August 4, 2007 at 6:51 pm |
You don’t mean Dirk W Lachenmeier? He obviously is a unbaised and objective “Government” scientist with no connection whatsoever to the absinthe industry (just like you, Ari)
How does this read to you? Do you not think that an open minded sceptic might think he had an axe to grind?
Ari // August 4, 2007 at 7:06 pm |
So now you have switched the claim. It’s not that they aren’t peer reviewed, it’s that you feel the source is biased. Perhaps you can pick an argument and stick with it.
I also notice you don’t claim Dirk’s papers contain errors, just that he is supposably biased. Can you show actual errors or is empty screams of bias the best you, who is obviously unbiased, can do?
The comparison between mine and Dirk’s absinthe industry connections was the ironic toping on the funny cake.
absintheur // August 4, 2007 at 7:33 pm |
No, Ari. I was responding to the fact that you were dodging the question of Ian Hutton and Ted Breaux’s bona fides as unbiased sources regarding thujone in per ban absinthe.
You said:
Which lead me to the conclusion that you were talking about that peculiarly convenient study that suddenly appeared from Lachenmeier.
I was pointing out with my quote that Lachenmeier should be viewed with same circumspection, given his unorthodox habit of making buyer recommendations.
Does the Surgeon General recommend Lucky Strike as genuine tobacco, and criticise other brands of tobacco? I assume that you now understand the point. It smacks of partisan interest, and not objective opinion.
Clearly I do not know what went on during Lachenmeier’s studies – I am not a scientist either, and do not have the benefit of a “major” in microbiology from a US university
Ari // August 4, 2007 at 7:54 pm |
While I do trust their claim and like their article, one of the things I’ve written on thujone purposely leaves their article out to show a case can be made without ever sourcing their article.
Dr.O on the other hand chooses to ignore all the other evidence to focus on his conspiracy theory. That you take him seriously is funny.
And by “study” do you mean the number of studies he and a group of others have done over multiple years using accurate methods and scientific instruments?
And you would be even more amazed that I have disagreed with some of Lachenmeier’s unsupported opinions.
So far you seem to have no issues with his research only with his opinions.
Clearly you haven’t read the papers then, which detail methodology, his data and cite sources.
absintheur // August 4, 2007 at 8:18 pm |
Now I’m curious. What do you mean? BTW: do you mind if I go back and indent some of the quotes on your posts, to make reading easier?
There is another point – I used to enjoy fencing at school – but I also have a serious question about these mock up runs using pre ban recipes. Will you answer without trying to parry?
Ari // August 4, 2007 at 8:39 pm |
Sure you can indent them.
Well a good example is that at one point he suggested a lack of thujone was evidence that a product didn’t use grande wormwood and were frauds, (at the time talking about some german and czech brands) but there was no reason to think thujone would always exist in the bottle, and later studies showed it’s possible to contain a large amount of G. wormwood yet get no thujone.
Sure, questions about the data or real flaws in the data I would be happy to discuss. The ‘He seems biased to me, thus I won’t listen to his research’ is what I have issues with.
absintheur // August 4, 2007 at 8:57 pm |
With these new pre ban runs, do you have any reservations about the quality of the AA? I mean in terms of harvesting, storage, mositure levels and the experience of the grower.
I think that you will accept – note my caveat about not parrying – that absinthe making is a lost art due to the ban. This forces one to rely on recipes without the steering hand of experience.
How much can you really set down on paper? This is art, isn’t it? I heard that some of the HG producers have produced very high (100mg +) level thujone from some traditional recipes.
I would be impressed if I got an “off message” and objective reply, as this actually interests me.
Ari // August 4, 2007 at 9:11 pm |
No reservations in harvesting as multiple strains/locations have been used. Storage is a more interesting question, although in most cases the plants have been treated based on old manuals.
I think some of the details are a lost art and/or just not done by current distillers (such as massive aging), I don’t think those details would have a serious effect on thujone levels.
Well of course if you are driving for thujone it’s quite possible, and I’ve heard of some mistaken high thujone HGs (although I don’t quite trust numbers as I don’t know how well the tests were run on them). Of course no one is suggesting a high level can’t be achieved, just that it’s quite unlikely pre-ban companies (who not only didn’t drive for thujone but couldn’t even accurately test the amount) were getting these same high numbers.
It really comes down to all the data and why we care about thujone to begin with. When you go back and look at how thujone became so popular, you realize it never had a leg to stand on and when the older statements are tested they can’t stand either.
Speaking of which I think I have asked you before and didn’t get an answer. Why do you think real absinthe must contain thujone, why do you think it must be a higher number others suggest, do you believe thujone in absinthe had any effect on the drinker and why?
(If you are really for non biased research, even if you don’t answer these here, answer them in your head then explore why you answered the way you did.)
Leif // August 4, 2007 at 9:19 pm |
While there is much to learn, I’ve read plenty and the “conspiracy theories” are founded by many a comment on the forums. I’d like to do a count of how many times Czech absinth is dragged through the mud being labeled only as “Czechsinth”–regardless of the varieties out there. One memorable post is when Kyle came on talking about his new processes only to have the gang jump on him without rhyme or reason from the get go. While I may have been generalizing, so have they.
After the reference to Reality etc., Ari said that he was’t referring to all Czech Absinth. Which is fine, however, as long as a page like this: What’s wrong with Czech Absinthe exists, you’re going to have mass confusion as to what products are “good” that come from there and what products are “bad”. Btw, the link to “more reading” on that page is broken–not that we’re any of the people who can fix it, but still…there’ s no “more reading”.
I guess, the theory I’m operating with is this: with the state of things today we should drop the “Czechsinth” generalizations altogether, along the lame ” shock” that something good might come from them, etc. and then judge them based off of their conformity to either “Absinthe” standards or “Absinth” standards.
There was very nice post about this over at oxygenee’s blog where he covers this and I think its a very intelligent proposal: Absinth vs Absinthe
absintheur // August 4, 2007 at 9:50 pm |
Oxy’s proposal is not based upon a clear appreciation of tradition. Absinth is the German spelling of absinthe & we all know that the Fischer Distillery in Vienna were producing “absynth” (an archaic spelling) during the Hapsburg years.
Martin Sebor – Kyle’s deceased partner – is said to have used the recipes of Archleba z Dobrusky, a medic who was producing absinth when the Czech lands were part of the Hapsburg Empire.
The fact that Gwydion Stone doesn’t know this, is no surprise to me, as his writings are of a “poison pen” lightweight variety. I regret that they are quoted as fact.
I recieved a email today which looks very interesting in respect of the Central European research, and seems to confirm the medical provenance of absinth.
Note: Absint is the Czech spelling, but absinth is the term due to the language of the Hapsburg Empire – German.
See also:
http://czechabsinthe.wordpress.com/2007/06/26/prague-night-with-absinth-1943/
Where did that come from?
absintheur // August 4, 2007 at 10:38 pm |
It was on Fee Verte? What is the link?
To be fair David Nathan-Maister has since called Bairnsfather “an honest product” – unlike Alan Moss (ex eabsinthe/ La Fee) – who claimed that a cherry coke cocktail with Bairnsafther was a waste of good coke!
(the post was deleted)
Bairnsfather Reality absinth is our favourite – I have two empty bottles (with the dried herbs) on either side of the fire place in my humble dacha.
Apart from being a great drink – the design is great. I put a link to yr blog comments on Reality in the Buyers Guide, Leif.
Ari // August 4, 2007 at 11:11 pm |
“is said to have used the recipes of Archleba z Dobrusky, a medic who was producing absinth when the Czech lands were part of the Hapsburg Empire.”
Can we see these recipes?
Yep, FV, I remember part of the conversation, which included Kyle not wanting to answer questions and then insulting everyone before leaving.
Leif Rogers // August 5, 2007 at 2:33 am |
I tried to get through the main site but something hinky is going on with Fee Verte, however, the direct links seem to work:
here and here
The latter starts out well enough, however, completely implodes a couple pages in. While the former starts out as debate then goes south.
Insults, name calling, etc. abound, however, that is the nature of forums.
Ari // August 8, 2007 at 6:44 pm |
Me, “Speaking of which I think I have asked you before and didn’t get an answer….”
I’ve noticed from other conversations those questions are often conversation enders. Because as far as I can tell there is no support for thujone, and barely even anecdotal evidence. People repeating claims and marketing seem to be most people’s sources. Which is ironic since you have “CAD” watch. I assume you will be watching your own site and czech sites for bogus commercial claims as well?
absintheur // August 8, 2007 at 8:13 pm |
Sin tastes at the first draught like wormwood water, But drunk again, ’tis nectar ever after. (II.ii.469-77)
Women Beware Women, Thomas Middleton 1657
LOL. You can’t ever resist? What is it with you?
I have tasted low thujone and very high thujone absinthe, and I can tell you there is a big difference.
Now, is it that thujone is a marker of the quality of the AA? That might be true. I recall a study which suggests that it is another element in the AA altogether, and for the life of me I can’t recall the name..but I bet you know what I mean? or am I confusing it with an element that allegedly negated earlier scientific tests?
The fact remains I can drink some awful French oil mix and feel like throwing up…and drink a glass of BF – or maybe even Century – and feel the effects. Don’t tell me it’s a placebo, and I’m not discussing perfumed elegance, or other media twaddle, about pre ban protocols a la “Bunny” 2001
Thujone has an effect on the GABA receptors, Ari.
PS: Who is Bunny?
Ari // August 8, 2007 at 9:23 pm |
Well it’s fun. And you are the one making blog posts about it.
How did you know it was low thujone and very high thujone absinthe? Were they controlled for thujone? Was this done as a blind tasting?
I am guessing not. In which case all you can say is bottle A personally gave you better effects than bottle B. Nothing more.
Based on what evidence?
As we all should know by now, starting and bottle content are quite different.
And you are absolutely certain with all the other chemicals floating around in the bottle, it’s thujone that is causing these effect?
No one can seem to provide any evidence we should be looking at thujone to begin with. Why ignore every other chemical? If I drink a cafe-late, was it the milk that made me hyper? Is it the trace amounts of methanol in wine that make me drunk?
Then you have done double blind tests to rule it out?
The entire point of the placebo effect is that a single person can’t tell the effect from the real thing, thus requiring it to be controlled for.
Yep and Nutmeg contains a powerful hallucinogen. Yet you don’t trip every time you drink a nutmeg powdered coffee. Its effects on the GABA receptors in large enough doses to be noticed cause a different effect than what is most commonly described.
You never actually answered my questions. They always seem to get ignored, opinion and faulty logic is substituted for evidence. You have wondered why thujone is so important to me, but I’m curious why it is so important to you? Why all the assumptions just to keep the thujone boat afloat?
absintheur // August 8, 2007 at 10:09 pm |
It’s midnight on the other side of the pond, and I’ll answer you in the morning, if I may. In the meantime talking of creatures of the night:
Source
Does Markus have anything to say? PS: Who is “Bunny”.. you didn’t answer me !
Ari // August 10, 2007 at 3:13 pm |
Bunny’s name is Pat.
Speaking of asking for answers.
absintheur // August 10, 2007 at 8:46 pm |
So is half the population of Ireland, Ari. C’mon..who is that? What is his connection with Guy? Scare us with your inside insight
Is this the latest spin, now that the Thanksgiving dinner stufffing story has got boring? Clearly the terpene in the alcohol is likely to deliver something more?
Fameuse thuyone…
Ari // August 11, 2007 at 3:42 am |
So are you going to keep changing the subject or answer the questions?
Since part of your blog focus is on thujone I assume you can back some of your statements up, or at least be able to explain why you focus on thujone.
Ari_x // August 16, 2007 at 2:39 am |
Now that I’ve had some fun, since it doesn’t appear the conversation is going any further, my point.
If you are going to make a statement or claim you should be able to back it up. While some are trying to make this out to be some sort of conspiracy or even more laughably a racial attack I don’t see anything wrong with asking a blog to support their statements. No amount of ad hom attacks or character assassination towards the questioner will change the fact you should support yourself. Frankly I question the motives of anyone who makes statements then spends the next week coming up with ways to get out of supporting themselves.
Earlier questions were an attempt to make you (or readers) think for themselves, which hasn’t worked for the blogger. Most people don’t seem to know why they say what they do about thujone or where it came from. Generally most thujone-has-effects information comes second hand or from unsupported sources. It gets repeated and adjusted enough that people think it’s truth. If you really explored where it came from it would unravel rather fast.
(Perhaps the lack of answers is because the blogger discovered he didn’t have much to stand on, in which case the statements should be retracted.)
absintheur // August 16, 2007 at 7:04 am |
“second hand or from unsupported sources”
It all depends who is asking the question and why.
Your position on thujone is based upon science created by your industry colleagues & one report from an obscure German scientist, who has inexplicably written an artile which
reads like an advertisment.
You dismiss any science that contradicts you as out of date or flawed:
etcetera etcetera…
Yours is a commercial argument developed by Ted Breaux and his business partner in Thailand 7 years ago, when they set up there to make Jade absinthe. The bulk of the science comes from Jade related parties – Breaux himself, who likes to call himself a microbiologist or an historian depending on who he is speaking to, and Ian Hutton, an antique dealer, who runs Jade’s online shop.
Many people know what is going on with you guys:
Ari_x // August 16, 2007 at 2:29 pm |
absintheur said, “Your position on thujone is based upon science created by your industry colleagues & one report from an obscure German scientist, who has inexplicably written an artile which reads like an advertisment.”
Logical fallacy. This is similar to Ad hom where someone attacks the writer and not the evidence. I don’t care if it was written by Hitler/George Bush or himself, if you can’t find something *wrong with the evidence* and not just the people it doesn’t matter.
(the fact you say “an obscure german scientist” and “an article” suggests you haven’t bothered to even look at the evidence)
absintheur said, “You dismiss any science that contradicts you as out of date or flawed:”
No, I dismiss statements that aren’t supported by evidence or are based on inaccurate statements (based on evidence) as flawed.
Take what you quoted, I agree with it, Thujone does effect the GABA receptors and if you were being intellectually honest enough to represent what I have written accurately you would know this. The problem is there isn’t enough thujone in absinthe to produce these effects and alcohol protects against them.
absintheur said, “The bulk of the science comes from Jade related parties”
Complete and blatant Lie. One we have gone over before. I see there is no point in further conversation if you are willing to repeat false claims.
The bottom line is, you apparently can’t support yourself with facts so you turn to attacks and false claims instead. It’s too bad, you could actually make something out of this blog.
absintheur // August 30, 2007 at 2:22 pm |
The truth at last….Lucid = NO THUJONE!!
“The first step was to develop a tasty formula without thujone, long banned by the FDA”
Lucid Absinthe
Ari_x // August 30, 2007 at 2:50 pm |
Find any gold in that mine?
Perhaps you should finish the quote,
“The first step was to develop a tasty formula without thujone, long banned by the FDA. Gurfein’s research led him to chemist and absinthe expert T.A. Breaux, who would spend the next five months at a distillery in Saumur, France, tweaking the Lucid recipe. “Through reverse engineering, Breaux found that the absinthe made 100 years ago actually contained very little thujone and would have passed current U.S. guidelines,” says Gurfein.”
Frankly everyone is being tight lipped about exactly how much thujone it contains. I get the feeling it’s the same as with absente (which contains thujone, (more than Hills)). While it may contain thujone it’s lower than the tests can read and thus they need to market it as a “we can’t say” or “no thujone” to not stumble over red tape.
Remember, if some are accurate the US test would show “no thujone” in a bottle of 9-10 mg/l tboned absinthe.
While you have bumped this, care to retract the false information previous posted?
absintheur // August 30, 2007 at 3:02 pm |
“The bulk of the science comes from Jade related parties” – is that what you mean?
1. Does the “scientist” Ted Breaux run a company called Jade
2. Does Ian Hutton sell Jade?
Answer: yes & yes. Is one not allowed to be a little sceptical? There is no conflictof interest as you see it?
Ari_x // August 30, 2007 at 3:09 pm |
You forgot,
)
3) Does the Bulk of science come from these two people?
Answer: No. (but don’t let a little fact like that get in your way, you haven’t before.
Leif Rogers // August 30, 2007 at 5:30 pm |
Companies create and market false science! Impossible!
absintheur // August 30, 2007 at 5:36 pm |
From this cosy little duo, perhaps?
http://www.getcited.org/refs/PP/1/PUB/103435432
One who sells Jade, and the other who writes inexplicable pieces, which read like advertisements for a particular sector of the absinthe industry.
Ari_x // August 30, 2007 at 6:13 pm |
Leif said,
“Companies create and market false science! Impossible!”
Ha. But where is the evidence this is false science?
I do enjoy the irony of Absintheur attacking this as false science yet allowing the blatantly false marketing of other companies to pass unchecked.
Just for fun I threw together a quick list of scientists that took part in papers that I have cited:
Karin M. Höld, Nilantha S. Sirisoma, Tomoko Ikeda, Toshio Narahashi, and John E. Casid
DETTLING, A., GRASS, H., SCHUFF, A., SKOPP, G., STROHBECK-KUEHNER, P. AND HAFFNER, H.-TH
Joachim Emmert, Günter Sartor, Frank Sporer and Joachim
Gummersbach
Dirk W. Lachenmeier, J. Emmert b, T. Kuballa a, G. Sartor b
Stephan A Padosch, Dirk W Lachenmeier and Lars U Kröner
Obviously all are just pseudo-names for two Jade creators and if they aren’t pseudo-names have been bought off by a vast french conspiracy to keep the Czech people down.
absintheur // October 1, 2007 at 9:03 am |
New York Times.
Ari_x // October 1, 2007 at 2:05 pm |
Because the NYT knows the science data of Lucid.
What was the point of that?